Limited Resources 275 – Dragons of Tarkir Rules, Previews, and Listener Survey Results

This week on Limited Resources Marshall and Luis show you the three exclusive LR preview cards from Dragons of Tarkir! They also use this episode to talk about the new rules and interactions in the set. Last, they go over some very interesting results from a listener generated survey about the podcast.

Link to survey: http://www.reddit.com/tb/2ykmg2

Survey Results: Current Results

Link to Mark Rosewater’s blog post: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/110840728088/do-you-guys-have-any-data-on-the-breakdown-of-the

Bear and Monkey Bike Race (not graphic): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQgc15YZK8o 

Limited Resources is brought to you by ChannelFireball.

You can support Limited Resources on the LR Patreon page here: http://www.patreon.com/limitedresources 

Your Hosts: Marshall Sutcliffe and Luis Scott-Vargas

Marshall’s Twitter: http://twitter.com/Marshall_LR

LSV’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/lsv

Email: lr@lrcast.com

LR Community Subreddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/lrcast/

Contact Marshall_LR on Magic Online if you’d like to join the Limited Resources clan.

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34 thoughts on “Limited Resources 275 – Dragons of Tarkir Rules, Previews, and Listener Survey Results

  1. C’mon, guys. The digression on the gender gap and LSV’s cringeworthy allusion to white male privilege was laughable. Having a gender gap is neither good nor bad. I’m sure if you did a survey for a fashion or crafting podcast, there would be a large gender gap. Are those gaps a problem too? A gap on its own is not a problem. If the gap is artificially made by people in a community being intentionally exclusionary, yes, things should be changed. But like Marshall said, Limited Resources is not that kind of community. If women want to join in, cool! If they don’t, that’s cool too! Using this statistic to launch into topics like racist/sexist jokes and male privilege seems like reaching to me.

    If you’re not being a bigot and a lot of women still aren’t listening, maybe they just aren’t interested! It’s sometimes just that simple.

    • your comments are an example of bigotry and privilege in action. you have decided on behalf of women that they aren’t playing magic because they don’t want to. you might be surprised at the kinds of things in history that have been excused with a similar assertion. your awkward assumptions about female-interest subjects aside, there is no equivalence between a large gender gap where males are the majority and a large gap where females are the majority because the first exists in a context and history of exclusion and the second does not. so yes, the gap is in fact the problem. no one is asking you to solve the problem, just to be open to the idea that a gap like this – especially such an extreme one – is indicative of exclusion working at some level. once we acknowledge that possibility maybe the subtler ways that exclusion can occur will be more visible to us.

      • “your comments are an example of bigotry and privilege in action”

        I can see this conversation will be productive.

        “you have decided on behalf of women that they aren’t playing magic because they don’t want to”

        I’ve decided no such thing. The statistics have shown that more men listen to LR than women. That’s it – just a stat. I’m just confused as to why LSV and Marshall seem to think hand-wringing over a stat or going off into rad fem 101 tangents does anyone any favors. If any woman can point to examples of behavior that made them feel unwelcome, I implore them to share it so we can address it. But just looking a stat and extrapolating it into discussions of sexism, racism and male privilege is a waste of time.

        “your awkward assumptions about female-interest subjects aside”

        What was awkward about them, exactly? Are fashion and crafting not suitable hobbies in your eyes? Women do like those things, you know.

        “there is no equivalence between a large gender gap where males are the majority and a large gap where females are the majority because the first exists in a context and history of exclusion and the second does not.”

        The patriarchy, hm? Not touching this one.

        “no one is asking you to solve the problem”

        My whole point is that there isn’t a problem. At least not one that can be identified by a simple demographics survey.

        “just to be open to the idea that a gap like this – especially such an extreme one – is indicative of exclusion working at some level”

        Again, you’re simply looking at a statistic and blindly concluding that the reason is malevolence on the part of the community. I don’t doubt that some people in the Magic community are jerks (not only to women, to everyone) but a gender gap is only proof of a gender gap. Anything else you glean from that is pure speculation.

        “once we acknowledge that possibility maybe the subtler ways that exclusion can occur will be more visible to us.”

        This self-righteous attitude is very becoming. You know what’s really exclusionary to women and you’re going to tell me how I should act around them, is that it? I can be acerbic at times and it sometimes can get me into trouble. But not once in my life have I ever been called a racist, sexist, homophobe, whatever. I treat people how I’d like to be treated – it doesn’t matter what demographic they fall into.

        • ————————————————
          “you have decided on behalf of women that they aren’t playing magic because they don’t want to”

          I’ve decided no such thing. The statistics have shown that more men listen to LR than women. That’s it – just a stat. I’m just confused as to why LSV and Marshall seem to think hand-wringing over a stat or going off into rad fem 101 tangents does anyone any favors. If any woman can point to examples of behavior that made them feel unwelcome, I implore them to share it so we can address it. But just looking a stat and extrapolating it into discussions of sexism, racism and male privilege is a waste of time.
          ———————————————–
          When you have such a gap, it is not deraisonable to believe that such a number is an indication of a problem. Having such a low number of female could just come from girl not being interested in magic (And I would personnally think that it would reveal a non-magic specific problem, but that’s another debate), but that’s just improbable. Try to apply your reasoning to other things. If you see a massive smoke, are you not worried that an house is burning, or are you just thinking “Oh, I have no actual proof that there is a problem.”?

          I’m not a girl, but my girlfriend has come with me to a few GP, and she has told me that, though the majority of the magic community is, to quote her, “adorable”, she has, in multiple occasions encountered sexist problems, such as people thinking they are going to have an easy game when they see her, being overly aggressive and/or exasperated when she take time to think, etc.

          • “If you see a massive smoke”

            A gender gap is not smoke. Smoke implies fire. Gender gaps imply nothing, they’re hard data. Assumptions can be made, granted, but when the assumption is as serious as widespread discrimination on the part of the community, more evidence than a simple demographics survey is required. Taking a simple survey and using it to talk about sexism, racism and male privilege only serves to make one look like an ideologue.

            Do some secondary research. Ask women why they aren’t interested in listening to the show. Ask what would potentially make them interested in listening. Get some feedback from them. Marshall did ask for this during the show but this was as LSV was going off into la la land talking about whatever tripe he could shoehorn in.

            Being upset or discouraged by a gender gap is not something I would concern myself with. But if people want to correct it, don’t immediately jump to damning conclusions and presume to know the solution. A gender gap is a starting point, not a conclusion.

            • JoeSchmo, I just don’t understand what all the commotion is about. Okay, so they talked about something you thought was irrelevant, so what? If the gender gap ordeal isn’t a serious issue, which you seem to believe, then why does it need such serious discussion? If anything, you deciding that the comments section of LR is the best place to bang your drum about gender issues is just going to make it a bigger deal, not a smaller one. I’m quite sure Marshall and LSV read these comments, and by going on your tirade you’ve only increased the chances of them continuing to talk about it by wanting to address this argument. I get the feeling that you would rather the podcast just be about Magic (maybe with a distinct anti-feminist flare, but maybe I’m misreading you), and here you are actively working against that goal. You’re complaining about “tripe” in the podcast, and here you are contributing to the problem with your own brand of it. Is it that big of a deal that a couple minutes of the podcast are about something you disagree with? No, not really. So go ahead and quote this line by line “refuting” my argument, but just know that every word you write is only going to drag on discussion of a subject that you clearly don’t enjoy discussing. You’re at 2 life, and Signing in Blood to draw more misguided arguments about gender equality just isn’t going to work.

              All that being said, great job on the cast, guys. It’s always a good listen! I do miss the Brhinoceros, but LSV does a reasonable impression 🙂 Your work is appreciated by the Orzhov, and it will be considered next time we come around to collect our taxes.

              • ” I just don’t understand what all the commotion is about”

                Sure you do, he explained it quite clearly in his first comment.

                “Okay, so they talked about something you thought was irrelevant, so what?”

                No, it’s not that he thought that it was irrelevant, it’s that it was actually, factually irrelevant.

                “If the gender gap ordeal isn’t a serious issue, which you seem to believe, then why does it need such serious discussion?”

                Straw man. Where did he claim that it’s not a problem? What you think he seems to believe doesn’t matter, what matters is what is, and what is is not the figments of your imagination. Also, it’s not a serious issue. A serious issue would be Muslims in Britain systematically kidnapping and grooming thousands of little white girls and forcing them into child prostitution rings. A non-serious issue is the Feelz of some upper middle-class white kids who’ve never experienced any extraordinary difficulties in their entire lives, only think they have, because they’re solipsistic monsters as a consequence of a lifetime of sheltering.

                “If anything, you deciding that the comments section of LR is the best place to bang your drum about gender issues”

                Like you deciding that the comments section of LR is the best place to bang your drum about gender issues? Hello, is anybody home? By the way, Mr. Schmoe wasn’t talking about “gender issues” – that’s you, dear.

                “is just going to make it a bigger deal, not a smaller one”

                Translated: “You’re not allowed to voice an opinion on things I’m sensitive about, unless it’s in agreement with my own. Free speech unless and until it results in the hurting of muh feelz.”

                “by going on your tirade you’ve only increased the chances of them continuing to talk about it ”

                And you don’t want them to address his comments, because you don’t want rationale discourse on such matters. Instead you want total, absolute, unquestioning conformity. Otherwise what’s the problem?

                “I get the feeling that you would rather the podcast just be about Magic”

                Wow, those feelz are awfully perceptive! How’d you figure that one out? Someone who came to listen to a podcast about MTG would rather the podcast be just about MTG, and not include irrelevant socio-political stuff? Amazing.

                “(maybe with a distinct anti-feminist flare, but maybe I’m misreading you)”

                Almost no one outside colleges and universities care about feminism. Time Magazine took a poll on their site for words to ban in 2015 and feminism won by a landslide (well over 50% on a list with at least 8 words) but the author of the article was forced to remove this little hickup. Adults outside the institutions and with real responsibilities tend not to care about such things, just as adult males with real responsibilities tend not to care about philosophy. Both of these things are for females on the one, males on the other, to gain some sense of relevance/power/desirability/status and ultimately sexual selection without having to actually work for it or be a desirable person.

                “and here you are actively working against that goal”

                Actively working against a goal which you just made up out of thin air…

                “You’re complaining about “tripe” in the podcast, and here you are contributing to the problem with your own brand of it.”

                That’s, just, like, your opinion, man.

                “Is it that big of a deal that a couple minutes of the podcast are about something you disagree with?”

                Is it that big a deal that someone voices their opinion about it? So big to you that you feel the need to try to shame them into stopping posting about it? The shame’s really on you, my solipsistic friend. Shame on you for trying to impede someone’s free expression, you little tyrant.

                “So go ahead and quote this line by line “refuting” my argument”

                Yeah Mr. Schmoe, you, your rationality and superior intellect! Haha, I gotcha now!

                “but just know that every word you write is only going to drag on discussion of a subject that you clearly don’t enjoy discussing”

                Oh noes! (And more like: Person he clearly doesn’t enjoy discussing it with – an insufferable, petulant child such as yourself)

                “misguided arguments about gender equality just isn’t going to work.”

                Misguided…by a level of reason and rationality that you could only dream of…

                Never forget that you, your feelz, moral posturing and your pretend moral superiority are the most important things in the whole wide world.

    • Yes, Joe, you’re right that “a gap on its own is not a problem.” As Marshall alluded to on the show, there’s not actually a problem with admitting that there are some activities that appeal more to males, and some that appeal more to females. I believe I’m correct to say that many competitive activities attract men in a greater percentage than they do women [as an aside, the degree to which this is a “natural” state vs. a social construction that is actually harmful to women (since things like job hunts, salary negotiations, etc. are also competitive) is a very interesting topic, but that’s a much broader subject than the LR community can tackle].

      But just because Magic may appeal more to men in general than it does to women, that does not mean that we can just sort of brush aside the entire gender gap. If the existence of the gap was 100% due to this different appeal, that would be one thing. But we have significant reason to believe that there are other things that contribute to that gap, things that ARE problems. If we’re willing to believe the words and reports of women who play the game, we know that they are often on the receiving end of terribly rude and blatantly sexist comments and actions when they try to play at a competitive level (whether it’s just at an LGS, or at larger tournaments). This creates a very unfriendly atmosphere and drives women away from the competitive scene, as well as preventing some from ever starting.

      Now, the LR survey itself may not have been completely representative of the LR listeners. It was distributed most widely on Reddit, which is a site with a predominantly male userbase (and not one that’s particularly kind to women, although the LR subreddit itself doesn’t tend to have that problem, from what I’ve noticed) I would be interested to see the results of a survey that gets announced on the podcast before it gets discussed, since that might bring a slightly different segment of the listeners.

      That said, I think the gender gap in the LR survey results can be linked to the gender gap that exists in competitive magic as a whole, which can be directly traced to the disgusting, degrading treatment that women trying to enter the community can encounter. It doesn’t seem like there’s anything that Marshall and LSV/Brian/Jon/Ryan have been doing wrong, it’s just unfortunate.

  2. Hey guys, one of that 3% of listeners who are female here to tell you I think you’re doing great. I can’t think of anything you’re doing that would discourage women from listening to the podcast. You’re doing exactly the right thing in trying to keep things open and accessible to anyone and everyone, treating people as just people and not trying to pander to women or anyone else.
    Shrinking the gender gap in Magic is going to take a very long time, if it happens at all. I don’t personally have a problem with often being the only woman at FNM, etc. I am lucky to have such a great community at my LGS that is truly welcoming and has never, in my observation, treated anyone differently because of gender, race, or anything else. But even in this ideal situation that I have found myself in, I know many other women would not have a good time. Maybe it’s because we humans like to place ourselves with others who are like us; maybe it’s because men and women both seem to have a hard time relating with groups of the other gender; maybe it’s because women have been conditioned to expect bad experiences when alone around a lot of men.
    The situation is often discouraging, but it encourages me that you take an serious interest in this imbalance and how you can make people feel welcome while staying away from the trite, I’d even say demeaning, attitude of “How can we get more women to LIKE us?” Keep up the good work, gentlemen.
    PS–I can’t remember how much you do this, and I’m not going to go listen to a bunch of episodes to check, but it’s great when people don’t just assume that every Magic player/opponent is male and occasionally use a “she” or a “her” in their examples or speculations. That’s about the only tip I can think to give.

    • Hiya,
      Another human of the female persuasion just wanting to let you folks know that I’ve really enjoyed the content you folks are creating!! Belay your worries oh valiant hosts, as the lady above I cannot think of any examples of comments etc that have been excluding of us. And as to magic at the LGS (out in the great white north of Canada), I have found that the local players are excited when women come to play and have actually tried their hardest to keep us coming back and to make us feel welcome.

      Keep on keeping on Captains

  3. I want a Team Shelley bumper sticker, since we clearly have to step our game up. Can someone more industrious than myself make this happen? 😉

  4. I thought your discussion of the gender gap among listeners (and Magic players) was excellently done. I can see there have already been some heated responses with regards to this issue, but I just want to add my two cents. Speaking as an anthropologist who’s taught gender at the university level, I found everything you said to be well thought-out, sensitive, and (most importantly) inclusive. I’ve witnessed a couple interactions at pre-releases or FNMs that almost certainly made female gamers feel unwanted or overly-scrutinized, and I think it’s important that we decide as a community that we won’t stand for it.

    From my own anecdotal evidence, I can say that my EDH playgroup is in the neighborhood of 38% female, but none of the those women play any organized Magic, with the exception of pre-release 2-headed-giants. I suspect that whatever data WoTC is collecting are more reflective of who’s buying cards than anything else. According to my girlfriend, who specializes in using consumer data (and doesn’t play Magic), demographic information is something that a lot of marketing companies collect, but is notoriously hard to get reliably. She suspects that the 38% figure should probably be taken with a grain of salt because it’s unlikely that there are good point-of-sale data for Magic, which is how those numbers are usually generated. If you do find out how WoTC was able to obtain that number, I’d be very interested in hearing it.

    Thanks for all the great work, guys!

  5. As another of the 3% of listeners who are female, I basically fall into all the “minority” answers of the survey. I am over 40, only play casually and basically never play MtGO. None of this is because I’ve ever felt discriminated against… I have gone to a few prereleases and one FNM. I have found for myself that more than say 4 magic matches in one day gives me a headache and I don’t enjoy it anymore, which tells me that any kind of competitive play is not the right choice for me. The events I have gone to have been at three different locations in the Netherlands, where I live, and all three made me feel super welcome, even though they didn’t know me at all. Maybe I’ve been lucky, or maybe that kind of discrimination you mention mainly happens at higher tournament levels, but I have never met a magic player who did not seem to be a very nice person (male, female or transgender). So the magic community I know gets a big thumbs up from me.
    I have never drafted except with my boyfriend, doing team Rochester drafts or sealed with him as well. I don’t like magic online because of the clock… It is much too fast for my level of play.
    As far as your podcast goes, I have always felt your topics and attitudes have been great. Sometimes they are a bit “above” my level of understanding, but I know that’s because I’m a casual player. I can still use your tips and advice to try to kick my boyfriend’s butt (although he listens as well, so he knows everything I know…). 🙂 I would say keep up the good work and I can’t wait for the new set review! Need to go preorder a booster box of dragons…

  6. Thank you for talking about gender. I am a FTM trans man. I luckily go to a games store that is very excepting of the fact that I am trans but I’ve had a few run ins with ignorant people. It will maybe make a few people think before opening their mouths. I’ve known a lot of women who play magic and my store has a ladies league. But it’s a male dominated sport still so thanks for bringing it up. It’s a small step but maybe some people will start to include women more. Thanks for your efforts towards making Magic a fun and safe place to be for all genders.
    Yours faithfully

    Ray Hall.

  7. As a more right leaning American I would like to point out that race gender and any other demographic is nothing to be worried about if the numbers are not balanced. I am willing to bet that the communities we all live in are not balanced but that does not mean we need to fix anything now do we? The fact of the matter is that if a woman really wants to play then she will and if magic is male dominated then it is just that. Leave the political arguments at the door and just focus on the main topic of the podcast which is magic.
    Thanks for another good one!

    • You’re right that a demographic imbalance isn’t necessarily a problem (and that we don’t need to expect Marshall and Luis to solve all of our social issues), but isn’t it worth asking if the data are indicative of a deeper problem? It may well be that it’s just social norms and gendered expectations of behavior are keeping women away from Magic, but if there *is* something that Magic players are doing that’s making it worse, isn’t it worth doing something about it? A 96/3/1 gender imbalance is pretty insane, so it’s certainly feasible that there’s something more going on here.

      • It really depends Dave I would just rather listen to Magic related talk rather than the fake social issues because if I wanted to listen to that I would listen to one of Obama’s speeches or listen to the news or something and that is why I listen to the Glenn Beck radio program. So I can be up to date on the world of politics. I listen to limited resources to get a better understanding of Magic.

        • I respect that: I’d rather listen to talk about Magic, too. But calling this a “fake” social issue isn’t giving it enough credit. We have data that suggest that there might be a very real issue. Just because you don’t find the evidence convincing doesn’t mean that it’s fake or not worth discussing. Based on the number of comments this podcast has generated, it’s pretty clear that people do care about this issue as it relates to Magic. You can read through the rest of the comments here and see that this discussion meant a lot to some listeners. I wouldn’t want LR to start doing lots of shows on this topic, but I think the listener survey was good opportunity for a short discussion — and it’s great that Marshall and LSV were able to make some listeners feel like the Magic community is more interested in inclusion.

        • I thought you were serious until you cited Beck as a way to stay up on politics, then I re-read your “fake” social issues and realized you’re just trolling.

          • Tyler I am not a troll okay. Please have a pleasant day but know that labels like that can be quite hurtful. I respect your opinion and I hope you can respect mine. I am glad you had the courage to say so. Again have a wonderful day Mr.Tyler.

            • With more time to think I would like to add more to my response. I would like to ask you Tyler about how many times the mainstream media has been ahead of an issue and then how many time Glenn has been right and been mocked horrendously for different ideas about the world. I would also like to ask you why you feel I am a troll because that label makes me feel hurt. I would also like to let you know a little more about myself so you know who you are affecting for the better or worse. I happen to be a masochist. I have to live in the closet because I am what I am and I happen to be gay. I can’t be open about it because it would ruin my life. I come here to disappear from reality and your words made me hurt. I have not made good decisions and I am suffering for it. Please take note of this next time you type a rather hurtful comment. May you have a good day. God bless.

  8. I would like to see more women in magic but I don’t think the interest is there. And I honestly believe its an interest issue rather than an issue with the way they are treated. Down here in Florida most of the game shops in my local area (within about an hour radius of me) go one step further than making sure the environment is super duper nice and inclusive, they even offer free entry to women to some of their events. This does nothing to the number of women I see playing magic compared to the number of women I’ve seen playing magic in areas that don’t do this. Yes there are stories of people being jerks and treating women poorly but if I were to be honest everyone has bad stories about playing magic.

    If you hand it out for free (in addition to blocking jerks in general, notably including ones that are mean to women) and they still don’t want to come out and play sanctioned magic then women simply don’t want to play sanctioned magic. And that’s it. There’s nothing more going on because that’s what the data points I’ve seen support.

    • Offering free things to people based solely on their gender is sexism. Not saying it’s a bad thing, but it’s certainly sexist.

      • Yeah it says a lot when you’re trying to figure out if its a community issue or an interest issue when blatant sexism in favor of women still isn’t enough to get them to show up.

  9. Pingback: LSV Nails the Issue of Gender and Discrimination in the MTG Community | Quiet Speculation - Learn. Trade. Profit.

  10. Honestly, if there’s a 64-36% male-female ratio in casual magic, the fact that it’s so terribly skewed in competitive magic strikes me as being an even bigger problem than if the numbers matched up and were skewed more towards men; it tells me that women LIKE the game, but don’t want to put up with the harassment that comes from playing it outside their house.

  11. Not sure if it matters but what the percentage of magic players that are female. Perhaps its not too far off from the percentage of listeners who are female.

  12. I wonder if there has been any research that is done into how the game is being marketed and how that affects womens interest?
    I would also like to throw into the discussion the cultural assumptions about what kind of hobbies women are expected to have and how they are socialized towards or away from them. As a woman people aren’t surprised when I tell them that I like knitting but are super confused when I start talking about magic or gaming. Because I am not expected to like things like this, people, often without realizing it, kind of give me a hard time about it. I think we forget or overlook these things some times as “thats just how it is” but I suspect things like marketing and social expectations can play a huge part in why more women aren’t playing magic, or just aren’t playing it in public and professional settings.

    Regardless, thanks for the podcast, talking about it and livley discussions are always better than ignoring it.

  13. It’s also very possible that the survey itself is skewed. There could be another statistic that shows that women don’t participate in surveys as much as men or that competitive men tend to over participate. I think there needs to be way more data added to the analysis before we can make any kind of good conclusion.

  14. As ever, while some of these comments are nice, some are laughable. Free events = “Blatant sexism in favor of women”? Or the idea that it’s fine as long as we’re not intentionally exclusionary?

    Male gamers remain defensive and tiresome.

  15. It was SO great that you guys discussed the gender gap in the way you did – it was obvious that you both sincerely care about it. My housemate and I adored you before, but when you talked about the existence of transgender magic players we both cheered. My opinion of the whole magic community went up significantly after this episode, because as representatives and role models for it you are both setting really great examples. Keep it up, it is meaningful to a lot of people.
    As many folks have said in comments above, the show is already incredibly inclusive. The one small thing I think you could change (both on LR and draft videos) is trying to not always refer to an unknown or hypothetical opponent as “he”. I remember BDM casually using “she” on the show and it was really refreshing.
    Thank you!

  16. Hey there,

    I’m new to MtG, I play with my housemate (constructed with his cards and some sealed recently as I got a bit over exited in the comic shop) after years of knowing people who play. I really enjoy your podcast, having been introduced to it at home. I am clearly a casual player (and I’m in it for the goblins first and formost, really enjoy beating control decks with endless self destructsing 1/1 critters) but I still get a lot out of listening to you all enthuse about magic. I feel that enthusiasm, humour and competance combined make for compelling listening no matter the subject, and you have plenty of all. All I would say (and I’m aware it is unsolicited input) is that sometimes it seems like you temper your opinions so as not to annoy more easily wound up part of your audience (particularly around subjects such as ‘sometimes you will lose games, and you’ll have to deal with that’ type subjects). I guess a lot of the creative geekery community online is aware of the hassle they can get from being unsympathetic to such types at the moment. All I’d say is the quality of your output is such that maybe they can just put their big boy pants on, if you have stronger opinions to put out there.

    Thanks loads for making such an informative and funny podcast.

    (For clarity, I am a queer woman. I have previously been ‘the girl who plays boardgames’, ‘the girl who larps’ and ‘the girl who plays tabletop’. Also, a badass)

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